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nova912
Something written over 200 years ago, when we had no army or police force to defend us or to enforce law?

I really dont see the point as a private citizen to be able to carry or purchase a
hand gun or automatic fire arm.

I dont really have a problem with a shotgun or a semi auto rifle for hunting perpouses.


But as a private citizen I dont think your gunna use a hand gun, or an automatic weapon for hunting.

I mean after all would of of these school shootings have been so massive if all though guys had was a knife or a a bladed weapon?
Dont you think a crime is alot harder to commit with a bladed weapon then with a fire arm?

Any way simple poll.
Stu
I strongly agree with this though I do not like how easy it is to be many illegal firearms. I have a 20 page paper on my external i think still on this subject and will have my opinion on any point, the good and the bad. I wont get into it cause i dont think u want a paper :D
Chimi
The 2nd Amendment doesn't give a private citizen the right to bear arms, however, most people believe it does. The Amendment was written so that the states in the Union were allowed to protect themself without the Federal government telling them they can't.

QUOTE
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


And the state has that with their National Guard programs. I think the 2nd Amendment should be enforced exactly how it is written. The "right of the people" it refers to are those that are part of the Militia (the National Guard). I agree there is no need for automatic weapons to be available to private citizens. The problem with the school shootings is careless parents rather then how the law is written. In CA, you're gun has to be locked up and not accessible by anyone under the age of 18 (which is the minimum age to be able to have a shotgun), or else the parent or the person the gun was taken from is guilty of a crime.

Places in the south though, where guns are pretty much in your hands from a very early age, are very easily accessible by children because their family members just keep them in a gun case and think its safe there.

I'm torn between being able to allow any private citizen to own a gun, period though. Its just asking for trouble. But I don't think the process to purchase and own a firearm is strong enough.
Stu
i def agree that no private citizen should own a high semiauto or automatic weapon. Single shot weapons only and possibly stricter rules for some of the lower cal semi's
nova912
like dont you think it would be infinit times harder to commit a crime with a blade over a gun, i mean is up close and personal with a blade or with a beating, but a gun ANYONE can fire with little or not since of actully committing an act like that.

I mean realistically the nutts in, for example since i live in michigan "the michigan militia" use the excuse of "well if the government turns on us we can defend out self" well cmon, if the government want to kill you they can do it because they can easly overpower your force with out blinking an eye.

If you wanna defend youe self from the government... vote.

but what im saying is make the guns compleatly aginst the law to posses and if you do have one it will be taken away from you.

And i agree that parenting is the issue on the school shootings but the accessibility of guns in the US through gun shows and such seriously needs to be addressed. IMO no where in the US should there be a hand gun or an automatic weapon in private citizen circulation.
Stu
well I take shooting as another hobby. Back home I go to the ranges prolly 2-3 times a month to chill, releave some stress and just get away. Renting guns from ranges would get damn expensive and fuck that shit. If if ur like no guns nova, is there no bows/xbows? You can just as easily walk into a store with a small high powered xbow and kill people as u could with a gun. What about ninja stars(no clue how to spell sherikin or whatever) You can throw them at a distance and if you are trained you can do that with great accuracy and such, throwing knives the same. Or even a blow dart gun. There is so many other alts to just a knife. I think guns are just the same, lets go ban crazy and not allow silverware even! sry hun, chew that steak whole, sry mr butcher, karate chop that cow down. I mean wtf.
Muerta
maybe if they scrubbed the right to bear arms, I wouldnt have a hole in my door. I still voted for you to go back to sleep.
Chimi
Its got to the point where you can't vote for matters like this because the National Rifle Association controls millions and millions of votes. I remember when the ban on automatic weapons that Clinton signed into law expired last year, the NRA threatened George W. Bush with their endorsement if he re-signed it. He went on and let the ban expire and the NRA endorsed him during the election. Apparently our President and the NRA hasn't watched the video of the North Hollywood Bank robbery enough to show how dangerous automatic weapons are in the hands of the public.
namishin
If this means taking away Willow's DHC, I'm all for it.
Liddasee
Boy, Nova's going to hate bringing this up when I get done with my epic-long essay on this matter.
Stu
nova and i went on vent and had like an hour discussion so its all good, i > arguer
Adelron
i spent an hour watching fools getting beheaded last night. Thats some fucked up shit right there. Anyway i bring nothing to this thread so move along.
Chron
QUOTE("Siddalee")
Boy, Nova's going to hate bringing this up when I get done with my epic-long essay on this matter.


/laugh
nova912
this topic is bigger then me i think.
Prevail
In Michael Moores movie "Bowling For Columbine" in which we all learned that Canada has as many weapons per capita as the United States. Statistically you have 10x the population of canada yet over 100x higher amount of gun deaths. I atribute the differance in gun related deaths to not only the lack of a signifigant screening process for gun buyers, but also unbvelievably slack laws regaurding automatic weapons. I also feel that the belief you need to protect yourself shows irrational fear of other human beings, if we all believed in basic human decentcy the world would be a safer place, because scared people do stupid things.

You guys could really use tougher gun laws, here in Canada you must pass a long course then send in an application for a licence to buy firearms. The application includes questions involving mental health and criminal records, also references for character must be provided and will be contacted. If you have a criminal record or are on any kind of antidepressants or mind altering meds, you will not get a lisence, same thing gos for if you had a restraining order or ever uttered athreat. Its a real tough process, once you pass you can buy rifles and shotguns. Handguns need a special licence and can only be taken out of the safe with a day permit, fully auto is illegal.

I guess ive talked this subject to death, I just thought Id express my opinion, and really look forward to hearing what others think
Liddasee
Well, before I get into this, I will say that mentality and society also play a big part into crime. Canada, also, while it does have major population hubs, has a less dense overall population than in America, where people are all crowded together, and thus, more interactions take place daily.

And remember, don't always assume that gun deaths = murders. While the US is very trigger happy, we do have a lot less murders than other countries. Both Canada and the US are in the top 50 countries for overall murders (percentage wise).

Gun regulations do vary by State, and while I do think there should be a more national standard, most States perform very thorough background checks. Most gun-related crimes are used with stolen or blackmarket weapons.
Liddasee
Well, I promised an epic, and I kept putting it off, but here I go…

I’m going to argue this from three standpoints. The State, and the individual and crime.

As Chimi stated earlier, the 2nd Amendment goes…

QUOTE
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.


This is the disputed passage in question. Some argue that it means that the State has the right to an armed militia, some argue that it means that the individual has the right to bear arms. The wording is a bit ambiguous, after all. If, by “the people”, do they mean the militia of the State, or is the militia itself composed of “the people” that have that right to bear arms.

In reality, I am quite sure that they meant both. That not only was it the right of a State to have a militia freely bear arms, but also, the right of the individual to do so as well so that in time of crisis, they could be organized to form a militia.

Case in point, though, the State. Is this 2nd Amendment truly being held to? While each State does have its own Guard, the National Guard is trained, regulated and mostly equipped by the federal government. The President can, at any time, nationalize the Guard, and the State then no longer has control over the Guard. This has actually happened more than once – take, for example, in Arkansas, when that high school was forcibly integrated. The governor of Arkansas called in the Guard to prevent it, but the President nationalized the Guard and they were called off. Now, I am not saying that it was right for the governor to use the Guard in that matter, but, it goes to show how much a State’s militia really is not it’s own militia. It hardly ever own the weapons they use, either. The Guard is controlled by the federal government, not the State.

And you may ask, what the hell does this have to do with gun control. If, for example, a State did not wish to have a nationalized militia – perhaps it is a time of crisis and the State wishes to protect itself without having its troops called away by the President – perhaps the State feels that the federal government is corrupt in such a way that it wishes to have its own militia to protect itself from federal forces. Who knows, but it is the right of the State to do so. If the second Amendment was nullified with another Amendment, one that did not guarantee a State’s right to have its people keep and bear arms, then a State could theoretically be left defenseless in an attack, either from foreign powers or even a civil war, or a social disruption or a terrorist attack.

You say, of course a State can keep a militia, I’m not against that. But if the State doesn’t even own the majority of the weapons that its own Guard uses, how is it going to supply its populace in a time of crisis? Short answer, it won’t be able to, especially if gun use is all but banned. Remember your economy class – supply and demand. If there is no demand for weapons, there won’t be vendors, and if you don’t have vendors, you don’t have weapons. By giving the individual the right to keep arms, you can ensure that if crisis were to strike, a militia would be able to FORM and protect the peoples of a State. The State would also have an easier time supplying weapons as need be. The people, using their own weapons, which they know how to operate, can more likely defend their home and their State than if they were just handed a weapon they had never even seen before.

You say, that’s not going to happen. We’re across the ocean from anything that would harm us, and it’s not like Canada or Mexico is up to something.

Yes, of course, nothing is wrong *now* - but in the future? A hundred years from now? Can you be so certain that we would not have a threat on our border, or even furthermore, a threat within our country, from terrorists or even civil war? The Constitution is not something to be changed often. It has lasted for two hundred and sixteen years now in its current form – not very many governments today can say that they have had a constitution last such a long time. The Amendment process is slow, and it is hard to change the Constitution for a reason – when you change it, the States must be CERTAIN that it will not only benefit them, but also benefit a future nation. The country cannot foresee everything, granted, but by taking away an individual’s right to bear arms, and the ability for a last ditch defense is completely removed, the consequences could be dire for America in the future.

You say, well, if it’s a problem then they can change it. Once changed, it is often VERY hard to get something changed back. And in a time of crisis, if there are no weapons vendors that are easily accessible, how can the changes be made quickly enough to supply those that need weapons? The change won’t come fast enough, and people are left defenseless. The change wouldn’t even be possible if the government itself was corrupted or there was civil war.

That is the viewpoint of a State’s militia and WHY individuals should keep arms – because they could easily form a militia to protect themselves. Do not think that just because it is unlikely in our time does not mean it is unlikely in the future.

For a moment, I’d like to step aside and do a small shout-out to Light, Chimi, Caste and possibly Wynd and Nova. I know that you boys are the only ones who have actually read this far, and for that, I love you. If you’re not one of those five, then I am extremely grateful and love you, too. Please continue.

Now, for the argument for the individual and crime.

This argument is rather well-known. The individual has the right to protect their homes and their persons. “Bear arms” can mean any weapon, not just guns. And I must stress, that though you may be able to come up with scenarios where people would not need to use guns, I can come up with many more in which people would NEED guns. Weapons they knew how to use and had access to.

You think that, by outlawing guns (even just certain types), you will reduce crime. That is, honestly, the most flawed argument there is. Remember, there was crime well before we had guns, there will be crime after. Guns are not the problem, people are, and people are a much harder problem to solve. People will still die, and honestly, in probably more horrific ways than being shot. There will still be murder and theft and rape and assault – guns do not define these crimes, nor do they make these crimes easier. A person can kill as well with a knife, their hands, even with a piece of string, as they can with a gun, and have been doing so for millennia. Do not think that guns make crimes any easier – banks are still held up with knives, people are still brutally murdered, women are still raped, there are still fights that end with a lot of blood people spilt. Guns do NOT define these crimes, and the lack of legal guns will NOT reduce these crimes.

By outlawing guns, you guarantee only ONE thing. The outlaws will have the guns.

If you think for ONE MOMENT that guns will not be available through illegal, blackmarket sources – heh, dream on. Right now, most criminals that use guns don’t even own them – they have stolen them from somewhere else. Or have purchased them illegally, since background checks are done.

This is, ironically, the same argument that many anti-gun advocates also say reversely about marijuana. Marijuana will always be available, anyway, but by legalizing it, the government can regulate it. This is the same reason why we SHOULD keep gun control the way it is. By regulating it, we can control it better than if it were completely illegal. You have seen, on the news, about how they only found a bullet shell, but with advanced forensic science, was able to track the exact place the criminal bought the gun (or who they stole it from), and from there, find the criminal themselves.

If we take that away by not allowing people to legally own those guns, that way of finding criminals will no longer be available. In fact, they would be almost impossible to find, whereas now, we can normally track such things down.

If people want pot, they can get pot. If people want heroin or LSD or crystal meth, then they can get it. If guns are outlawed from the individual, only the people we don’t want to have guns in the first place will actually have them.

Crime rates do NOT relate to gun control. Vermont has very few gun control laws – they even allow concealed weapons – and they have the lowest crime rates in the country. Texas, also, has a very low crime-rate – people drive down the street with a gun-rack in their truck, what do you think?

Britain, who has STRONG gun control laws, has higher crime rates for major crimes than the US.

Gun control doesn’t take down the SEVERITY of crimes, either. At least with a gun, people can shoot you in a number of places that isn’t life-threatening if you got medical attention soon after, whereas otherwise? A knife can seriously fuck you up. That girl that Light posted about – did they shoot her? No. But she died a horrible death anyway.

This all being said, I don’t think people should be walking down the streets with an AK-47 in their hands, but I completely believe in their right to OWN an AK-47 if they desire.

Guns are even becoming more sophisticated – finger-print or voice command identification to prevent stolen guns from being used in crimes. Gun use should be REGULATED, perhaps with more strict background checks and requirements, yes, but as Americans, we should have the right to keep guns for the protection of our persons, our family, our city, our State and our country.

There. Take as you will.
Liddasee
I made that one phrase big so that I'd be certain you read at least that.
Chimi
Very well written Sidd. I have plenty of thoughts on this subject, just no time at the moment to express them. However, I do agree with you on a lot of your points.

Just for everyone to remember, the Supreme Court has only seen a case on the 2nd Amendment three times in the HISTORY of the United States.
Adelron
guns are bad ass.
Stu
wow i wish i wasnt lazy and type up all my stuff and to read sid's post, i had my chat with nova but ill talk to anyone on vent about this issue all day. 'Maybe nova will type up all the shit we talked about :P
Tred
I'd hit it
Raggnarock
Damn Sid, If I wasn't so lazy I would have said some of the same things. BTW can I borrow some of that dissertation. It is really well written. You never know when you can use some kick-ass arguments like the ones you wrote. I <3 Sid.
Liddasee
Er, I guess. Thanks. =P
Lightyears
sorry, i'm not reading all that.

the problem isnt the law. the problem is the stupidity and the lack of maturity and common sense found in everyday people. imo.
Liddasee
Did you at least read the bolded, large lettered sentence in the middle of the page?
Stu
awww, i actually went ahead and read it. They didnt even read it cause they didnt respond to the shoutout D: I will reply after my test I just had to say this now

also in my arguement with nova I used the same thing with guns/drugs and how we can never get rid of them. I had a lot more information though. Like I said ill post after my test.
Stu
Im going to try and keep this short and stick with the facts and nothing in between.

So first off, guns will never be taken out of the United States. Guns make way too much money for the US to even think about banning. Since the events of 9/11 alone sales of guns have increased 18% and profits 16million. And with this sort of expansion, economy grows as well. Banning guns will get rid of thousands upon thousands of jobs which would put us in a huge recession. Nova and I got on a huge sidetrack on guns in movies and how they would change that if there was a ban because you would just have to have it all computer generated which would suck but solve the problem in movies though there would be know accidents like Brandon Lee.

In the early 2000s there were more guns purchased in the United States though the murder rate droppped. How is this possible? The number of guns and murders do not correlate. More people are killed by Cars, Falls, POISONINGS, drowning, fires, suffocation. (looking this up I found out volelyball is the 5th highest activity relating in hospital visits with things like dogs, baseball, ATV/moped and such accidents)

I agree with sid on guns/state does not have a big correlation with crime, but its more of a population density thing. The more people in an area the more chance there is for a gun related death or murder in any sort. Face it, people do not get along, they never will and especially with gangs and everything in most major high population area accidents with their silly quibbles trying to take over more territory and taking control of the stores and everything in the area.

Nova talked about how if there were no guns people would use knives(I used that arguement about guns/drugs and such). Also, people can now buy illegal guns over the internet with no problems at all. My friend bought a fully automatic AK-47 with no ID and had it sent to a POBOX. If it is so easy now to buy things illegal when more things become illegal there will be even more outlets. But nova insisted that if it were to happen and people could not get them or did not want to spend the time to find one or it was impulsive and they did not have the time to do it and they went into the store and saw 3-4 people and all u had was a knife you would probably do nothing. My arguement on this was that if you wanted something like the cash from a register or something and there is a few people around you would more than likely know you are behind and go straight for a killing blow on the person behind the register and other people will stay back. So you will get more deaths from this situation. Most gun users just have it to evoke fear in their subjects and do not intend on using it at all.

There are also so many different types of weapons you can use instead of a gun. Nova kept using the idea that people will not be able to get a hold of a gun and he had the idea of columbine and the shootings. The kids just used the guns because they were available to them to use. There are also many recipes for different types of bombs in which the ingredients are all readily available. These bombs are even more potent than a gun because some people can actually get away from the gun and with a few well-placed bombs, there is no hope.

I love the idea of having a firearm voice activated or something to prevent the gun being stolen and used and it is in the works. Also, when a gun is fired it leaves a little film on your hand to put a person with a weapon, which is the best we really have now besides fingerprints.

I dont feel like doing any real research atm just coming from a test but well hey 20 mins on this crap is good enough.
Yor
Simple facts to add:

The gun is the single most important factor in our freedom. Before the gun armor made people almost invincible and thereby able to oppress the people. Add to this the fact that steel armor and weapons were too costly for the average person…

The author of this post states that he has no “problem with a shotgun…” yet this is still the most deadly weapon at 50 yards or less. Add to that the fact that it is untraceable as far as ballistics go…

The Assault Weapon Ban that Clinton passed was a waste of our tax money because more people were killed with baseball bats that year than ALL the guns on that list COMBINED.

OMG full auto… no one should ever own one. Simple fact: More murders are committed with bowling balls than full auto weapons every year recorded in the US. (Important side note: No one, innocent, was killed in that California shot out that we all saw on TV be glad the bank robbers did not use bowling balls :P).

The crime rate in the US is proven to be the highest in the cities with the tightest gun control. A county down south (forgot the name) has a real law that ever house must own a gun, or register with the town as to why they do not. This county has the lowest violent crime rate in the US.

Scary thought: only the police have guns. Fact: more police are shot with their own guns then by other people’s guns every year!

More people commit suicide with guns then are killed by them every year. Additional fact gun control people love to LUMP those deaths with the others even when they are claiming the number of “murders” were XYZ.

FACT: We have no way of knowing how many crimes are prevented by guns each year.

The statement that gun control would have made “Columbine” harder or less likely is flat out wrong. I live in Germany and the gun control laws are very tough yet 18 people were killed in a similar incident http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1953040.stm.

I can go on and on but the bottom line is:
Are you really qualified to discuss this topic or do you just look at only the facts you want to and hope to impose your views on others?
kodokai
Very well written, all of you. I'm impressed that you took the time to expess your opinions in such detail and since three of you have so eloquently made my point, I don't see any reason to post a friggin essay here.

If you outlaw them, only outlaws will have them.
ripvaanwinkle
QUOTE("Siddalee")
This all being said, I don’t think people should be walking down the streets with an HK-47 in their hands, but I completely believe in their right to OWN an HK-47 if they desire.



I don't feel like responding to anything in these posts except for this part.

HK-47 is not a gun, however AK-47 is a soviet-made rifle, AKA Kalishnikov. I have no idea what HK-47 is but I googled it and it seems to be a character in a Star Wars video game.
Liddasee
LOL yes.

I am channeling KOTOR.

OMG I loved HK-47.

<dies>
Liddasee
I edited it.

But.

I repeat...

That droid made me hot. Literally.
Kobe
quit callin me droid, u can call me kobe now
kodokai
QUOTE("Kobe")
quit callin me droid, u can call me kobe now


ROFLS
Liddasee
He just takes any chance he can get, huh?
Yor
http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/guri/eu.html

Speaking of DRIOD weapons
Hellkin
Wow Siddalee, I was really impressed with your reply.

The biggest problem with this type of a debate is people argue when they really dont have all of the information available. As an example someone above (sorry didnt quote) said it was to easy to get automatic weapons in the US. This is entirely untrue. Quite a few states dont allow ownership of these weapons. In the rest of the states you need to get signed off from your chief law enforcement officer in your area to even start the proces then there is a $200 federal tax stamp and a 3 month FBI background check. There has been exactly one crime commited with a legally owned automatic weapon and this was done by a police officer of all people.

The right to bear arms it just that a guaranteed right. Just imagine what kind of stink people would make if the govnerment tried to take away all drivers liscenses country wide. This isnt even a guaranteed right its a priviledge.

Another thing to look at is violent crime not just murders. All private gun ownership in the UK has been revoked. Since this happened violent crime has increased almost 10 fold. On the other hand gun owner ship has been on the rise since 9/11 and violent crime in the US has been drastically going down.
Liddasee
Thanks Hellkin. :) I haven't seen you in a while!
Emokore
Just a side note -

In England hand guns are agenst the law.

Last year, there was zero deaths from hand guns.

Interesting eh?

Not that I think that would help in America. We are too fucked up of a country to not kill eachother.
Hellkin
QUOTE("Emokore")
Just a side note -  

In England hand guns are agenst the law.  

Last year, there was zero deaths from hand guns.

Interesting eh?

Not that I think that would help in America.  We are too fucked up of a country to not kill eachother.


No civilians are allowed to own guns atm in the UK. However, police and govnerment agencies still use these weapons. Also criminals dont care about the laws, thats why they are criminals. They aquire weapons and use them. This is part of the reason violent crime (rape, robbery, home invasion) not just murders is on the rise in the UK Having said that i find it impossible to believe that no one was killed with the use of a handgun last year. If you can post your source pls feel free to do so. That would be like saying no one died of a drug OD in the US because drugs are illegal.
Liddasee
QUOTE("Emokore")
Just a side note -  

In England hand guns are agenst the law.  

Last year, there was zero deaths from hand guns.

Interesting eh?

Not that I think that would help in America.  We are too fucked up of a country to not kill eachother.


But, but but, England had higher rates for all major crimes.

There may have been few gun deaths, but there was even MORE crime.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2...21/205139.shtml

or

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article....RTICLE_ID=21902

or

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml.../01/ixhome.html

for those of you who like multiple sources. =P
Emokore
The no handgun thing was from a bill hicks skech. I wasnt serious. But its true what they say about the english still comitting crime even with less handguns. They like to use little baseball bats and soccer balls to comit their crimes. bloody english. jk again =p kinda
Pygmee
Wow...that was a long read. Well done Sid !
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